Communication in Relationships 101 with Connie Cornwell

Do you have a roadmap for defining a good relationship with your partner?
 
At its core, we all want and long for secure adult attachment. That’s when partners have total trust in each other, which creates a safe haven knowing that your partner will always stand by you no matter what.
 
This episode of Therapist Unplugged has it all! Hear more on how infidelity, the birth of a first child, and chronic illness can create attachment wounds that couples struggle to address. You will learn what takes couples under, how families influence the way we connect with our partners, how the blame game contributes to a crazy dance, and why giving language to emotions is essential for a closer connection. This episode is for couples and therapists alike! 
 
Our host, Laurie Poole, welcomes Connie Cornwell, MA. Connie has over 30 years of experience as a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Licensed Professional Counselor, and Approved LMFT & LPC Supervisor. She is a Clinical Fellow and Approved Supervisor with the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy and a Member of the American Family Therapy Academy. Connie is the Senior Supervisor at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Family Studies Center in the Department of Psychiatry. She trains and supervises interns, psychiatry residents, and medical students. 

Therapist Unplugged is brought to you by The Montfort Group. Each episode will feature the unplugged views of guests and fellow therapists as we navigate hot topics, therapy trends and the world around us.

*The Montfort Group provides a serene, calming setting where you can feel challenged, supported, and motivated. Our skilled therapists bridge specialized backgrounds and varied philosophies together to create one unified strategy. Rather than steer you away from your own natural abilities, we help you maximize your unique strengths. We do not view a broken history as the end of a story, we see it as an opportunity for a new beginning.

Transcript

Laurie Poole: 0:31

Welcome, everybody to therapist unplugged, I am so excited about today's guest in our conversation. I can't think of a better person with whom to talk about couples relationships than my mentor Connie Cornwell. Connie has over 30 years experience as a couple and family therapist, educator, trainer and supervisor. And she trained and supervised me, I gotta say, she studied Emotionally Focused Therapy under Sue Johnson and Gail Palmer, who developed this most researched model of couples therapy called Emotionally Focused Therapy. She also co edited co edited case studies in couple and family therapy with Dr. Sarah woods of UT Southwestern, and in which I also contributed a case study. Currently, Connie is the senior supervisor of the Family Study Center at UT Southwestern Medical Center in the Department of Family and Community Medicine, where she trains counseling interns, medical interns, and residents. Welcome, Connie.

Connie Cornwell: 1:39

Laurie. Laurie, thank you so much for inviting me to do this. I love this. And I always enjoy working with you.

Laurie Poole: 1:47

Well, thank you so much. You know, in my years in working with couples, what has become clear to me is that we really don't teach people about what it means to have a good relationship. And so I thought that could be the starting point of our conversation today.

Connie Cornwell: 2:08

I think you're right about that I was just thinking about in previous years, before I got introduced to EFT couples work, couples would come in with therapy. And their attitude was we fell in love. And as long as we're in love, we're okay, that we're now falling out of love. And so, you know, what does that mean? I mean, you know, how do you define what that means or what love is? So, you know, thank goodness that Sue Johnson has made a point of really diving into what it means to have secure adult partnership. Yeah, so now we kind of can help couples realize, hey, this is where we want to go. And so to define what that is, is really important, even when you're beginning your work with couples. And what it is secure adult attachment is where people not just feel secure with each other, but they have total trust in each other. Yes, they end up creating the safe haven. Yeah. And the most important thing is that, you know, no matter what, even in disagreement, your partner will always be standing by you. Yes, yep. What we're longing for. That's really what we all want.

Laurie Poole: 3:31

Oh, that is so true. That is absolutely so true. When I think about how couples present conflict, and it's usually expressed as well, we just don't communicate very well. I'm not sure what's going on. But so I'll say things like, Well, can you predict what's going to happen when you disagree? Like what happens when there's tension and conflict? Do you know what all the steps of that dance are? And often they do, because they've gone through that cycle so many times that they can actually give you a rundown of what might happen. He'll say this, I'll say that, and then she'll do this. And I'll do that and back and forth. But I don't think for most people, the concept of a safe secure attachment is ever really mapped out for them. And I think that's what Sue Johnson's model of EFT does it gives you a map?

Connie Cornwell: 4:36

Absolutely not. And she's talking about adult attachment. That's right. And this is kind of a fairly new concept. If you think about it. You know, when couples come to us, it's always about communication problems. And then when they sit in front of you, you know what happens? It's the blame game. You know, if you would only then things would be fine, right? Yeah. So they're shooting arrows at each other. That's right. And then one of the key pieces of doing the couples work is the ultimate reframe, which is, as you just described, how the couples dance. Yes, they get that dance takes him under and that dance is the enemy rather than each other.

Laurie Poole: 5:23

That's right. Exactly. And I what I love about having that reframe of a dance sense is that it helps to lift up that sense of? Well, I think it gives couples some hope. And it gives a more objective framework to consider what's going on between them, that allows them to make better sense. Without feeling as though they're being attacked, blamed, it's their fault, and so on. I mean, it takes time to get there. But it's, it's, it's that dance, it's also catching in the moments of therapy, you talk about the arrows or the fight, I call them shots across the bow, or games and ping pong, when a partner is expressing how they feel. And then the other partner says, Yes, but and then they go back and forth. You know, it is it's like watching your ping pong match, as they go back and forth. fighting so hard to be heard and understood.

Connie Cornwell: 6:23

Absolutely. You know, it's like, partner is trying to justify their position. Yeah. You see, that's right. And, and, you know, that's kind of how we're wired. As human beings, we all want to justify our positions. But, you know, it takes them down a rabbit hole where the conflict never gets resolved. That's right. Now, as you and I both know, we also know this crazy dance is their way of trying to stay connected. You see? And that's otherwise they wouldn't be in the dance

Laurie Poole: 7:02

does, right? It's that it is that fight to the fight for connection, the longing to be connected. And sometimes what happens is, what couples it's couples getting are, how do I say this become engaged in reacting to the reaction of their partner, which creates this feedback loop back and forth? You said yes, but you said and before they know it, they're stuck in this feedback loop of reactivity, and not really getting to the heart of the matter.

Connie Cornwell: 7:36

And, you know, in our work, we describe all that enemy dance is being filled with what we call a secondary emotions, the anger, the blaming, yes, the frustration or the heat. But then, in EFT couples, we're, what we're trying to do is to go underneath that and get to what we call the primary feelings. These are the feelings, feelings that are really driving. That's right. That's right. That's, as you know, that's the bulk of you, and see what happens in relationship. Is it so easy to become reactive and go to those secondary emotions? Absolutely. Because a lot of us are not, we don't access the deeper emotion.

Laurie Poole: 8:27

I have a beautiful example of that that came up yesterday, Kanye was working with a couple. And we were unpacking an incident that had happened the night before. And he said to his wife, oh, yeah, well, what about? And I said, Can we hit pause? What just happened for you there? And he kind of looked at me. And I said, I'm wondering if you're speaking in code, what was what was underneath that response to your wife? And as we unpacked it, what did we find? Feeling of? I don't know how to tell you how much I love you. When it feels as though the words aren't enough. I use words for a living and my words with you don't stick. And I'm so lost. And I don't know what to say. And I just so I lash out, or I push back, because I feel so lost in that moment when I want to share with you that I do love you. And just to be able to stop in that moment. I don't know, honestly, that deeper emotion of feeling lost and inadequate, would have come up. If we hadn't hit pause. And I was able to say, what was happening when that when you when you went came back to life about that.

Connie Cornwell: 9:55

We see You're right about that. Laurie, because see those primary deeper feelings we may not have access to or we don't want to touch it because it's too painful. Yes. See? Yeah. So we're kind of wired in way to avoid those things. You know, and and the truth be told, I don't know about you, but I don't think any of us were raised in families that talked about those primary emotions very often.

Laurie Poole: 10:26

Oh my gosh, no, absolutely. not I mean, you know, I've speaking from my own experience, I think being trained in EFT and having gone through, pardon me, that experience certainly gave me tools to access how I'm feeling in a much deeper way than I could have on my own. Absolutely,

Connie Cornwell: 10:48

yeah, absolutely. And I'm going to point this something right now that you're reminding me of, I think the truth is, in order to do this work, the therapist or himself has to be vulnerable, to be willing to touch your own vulnerability.

Laurie Poole: 11:08

Yes.

Connie Cornwell: 11:10

Do you as a therapist can't do the work? You know, no, that

Laurie Poole: 11:17

that's very, very true. It's not, it's not a model of therapy, that's for all therapists

Connie Cornwell: 11:23

know, if not, really isn't, you have

Laurie Poole: 11:25

to be willing to go there and be and be vulnerable and to be fully present. And I think you have to have done your own work. Because invariably, the people sitting in front of you will reflect back experience you've had, especially at this stage in my life. There, there are scenes that have been played out in front of me, and I'm thinking, Oh, my gosh, this is like a page from my own book.

Connie Cornwell: 11:51

It's a bit of you sitting across from me. Yeah, absolutely.

Laurie Poole: 11:54

It really is. Connie, let's talk about family and the influence of family of origin. One of the things that I say to clients when we start is we bring our families with us into our relationships, because they have influenced the way we show up in a primary relationship. And then I'll do a Gina Graham, which for our listeners, looks like a three generational family tree. And when you're a systems thinker, like Connie is, and I am we consider a person within the system of the family in which they were raised, and the generations that precede them. Because we know that patterns get handed down from one family to another, sometimes in ways they don't even know. It's actually a little woowoo. When you look at some of the patterns. Yeah, yeah, I wonder if you could speak to that, and how that affects the way couples interact and show up?

Connie Cornwell: 12:51

Yes, I'd like to do that, you know, um, what happens is that we can bring with us from what we call our family of origin, our attachment style. Yes, see, and you may come from a family, where you may have had negative experiences in relationships. And then that ends up creating what's called a fearful attachment style. And sometimes it's also called a disorganized attachment style. Because you can see, if you were raised in a family where it wasn't safe to be in relationship because of trauma, or maybe abuse, some kind, then you can end up being very fearful. And you can bring that with you into your current relationships are certainly in relationship to a partner. Or you may be someone who is avoidant. And doesn't really trust being in a relationship or doesn't want to be in a relationship because they pride independence over connectedness. Right? And that can come from your family. If you came from a family, that you didn't feel that nurturance or sense of belonging, and you felt more alone, then that can contribute to that kind of attachment.

Laurie Poole: 14:23

Certainly, because you drift towards what's familiar, don't you?

Connie Cornwell: 14:26

Oh, yeah, yeah. And then you have the anxious attachment style, where you never want closeness, but you have never yet to experience that closeness. And so you bring that anxiety to your current relationships, and you end up feeling anxious.

Laurie Poole: 14:46

Yes, yeah. So you were you grow up in a family environment in which you never knew what to expect. Right? Right. And so you were on guard a lot of the time where people would come or go, or sometimes to where children found themselves or find themselves in a family of origin where they feel they're taking care of their parents. They have to take emotional care of their parents. Yes, very much,

Connie Cornwell: 15:13

or they never really got that secure bond, right? With a family member, primarily a parent. Yes. It was just, they couldn't count on it yet. They were longing and longing. So they And what happens is, as you, you know, become an adult, and you start to be in relationship and you're looking for a partner, you can bring those styles with you. Which then unconsciously be it's kind of the crazy dance that you may end up creating with your partner, your partner with you.

Laurie Poole: 15:49

Yes, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. Because, again, you're drawing from what you know, based on your own experience growing up where you had the earliest experiences in relationships.

Connie Cornwell: 16:03

Right? And and, you know, and I'm sure you do this, too often, I'll ask couples will ask each partner, have you ever experienced a secure relationship? And then that's kind of a measurement of where they are? And some people actually very sadly tell you no. And then some people say yes, and they begin to describe it. But then they'll say, Well, actually, I didn't like trust. Or, you know, there'll be some other thing about that doesn't really describe what we know, is secure.

Laurie Poole: 16:40

That's right, I asked the question. Was there anyone in your life growing up? Who made you feel safe, taking care of unconditionally loved? Whose lack you wanted to crawl into when you needed comforting? Exactly? It's when I asked the question that way, it's interesting to hear what comes up because you're right. It's not always a parent, it can be a grandparent, it can be an aunt, it could be another adult in the inner circle of the family, who perhaps offered that partner something they didn't get from their parents. But they remember that feeling of being unconditionally loved and safe.

Connie Cornwell: 17:18

Yes. And for the couple that you're working with that describes that, that makes the work of EFT little easier. Yes. What's really difficult is if you're working with a couple where neither one has ever experienced anything close to a secure attachment, and then you have to remember that they have no idea where you're going, you know, what that experience is, like, say? So in the course of doing therapy with them, you're helping them to hit start, have they having that experience?

Laurie Poole: 17:56

That's right. And I think that's where it happens, right? In the therapy room in session. Because the clients, you're right, they don't have like, an emotional memory of what that feels like. Because we do remember feelings. Yeah. And, and if you haven't had that experience, and you don't have a frame of reference, to know what you're working towards, and I think that's where therapy therapy can be so helpful, because we're creating that experience in in the therapy.

Connie Cornwell: 18:30

Yeah. And and literally, you're pointing and teaching them and actually telling them what it's gonna look like. That's right. And then I always say, is that something you're longing for? And say yes, yeah. And they look at you, as if is that possible? Yes. In this relationship?

Laurie Poole: 18:50

Yes, that's right. Because they're there. I mean, it really means learning new steps to their dance and new language. Yes. Connie, can you talk about what happens when couples come in, and perhaps one couple doesn't have the language to express how they're feeling? We've talked about secondary emotions, I described those as the emotions you can see on the surface of the water, right, maybe that reactive level, and then the deeper emotions, which we don't always see in the depths of the water. But even though secondary emotions for some, for some couples, for some partners in a couple, have a hard time describing, how do you feel all that feels bad? Well, what's bad? Well, I don't know. Then I'll say, Well, can I throw a few things at you, and you let me know if I'm heading in the right direction? Wondering if it could

Connie Cornwell: 19:51

sweat. What I have learned is it sometimes you have to help the client move towards those deeper emotions by giving them some length. And you do that in a very respectful and an active way? Like, let me see if this is how it did. For instance, you have someone who is and we really didn't talk about the cycle itself. The basic cycle includes Someone, this is a simple description, believe me, it's more complicated as you know, right? Someone's pursuing and someone, right? So often the pursuer may be anxious, right? They're eager that connection. And I'll ask them how it feels. And they'll just say, Oh, well, I'm upset, I'm angry, you know, frustrated, right? Then I'll also take them down to maybe a deeper place. Because what I know from experience that the pursuer often feels invisible. Yes, exactly. It's like when I offer that up and say, Do you feel like you're invisible? Immediately? They look and you see the look in their face? It's like a recognition. Yes. Yes, I feel invisible. Which makes sense. Because if they've been pursuing and trying to read your connect with their partner, and they're not getting response, after why you do feel invisible. Absolutely. So what I'm doing and and you know, this as well is that we're offering up another languaging, the mother kinds of emotional language that helps them to kind of start to identify there's a whole bunch of other stuff underneath just feeling frustrated and angry.

Laurie Poole: 21:53

That's right. That's right. You describe the pursuer, I think also for the partner who tends to withdraw, and just wants to leave, because they get overwhelmed, or because they too, feel anxious. But they respond to the anxiety differently by avoiding or distancing. And also, there can be a real fear of making things worse. Well, if I just keep quiet, things will calm down and we'll be fine. So becomes a protective move, in the same way that the pursuer is trying to protect their relationship by pushing and poking and pursuing and desperately wanting to know, Are we okay? Yeah. And, you know, it creates this perfect storm, right, of running after and running away. And it's amazing what can happen when the communication style or pattern is reframed in that dance.

Connie Cornwell: 23:00

Exactly. You know, what would it feel like to take a couple of steps towards her? Or him?

Laurie Poole: 23:07

You know, it's it's really, really interesting to see how that can change. Right, when a couple understands their dance and their triggers. What gets that's what gets the dance moving, and the emotional music that starts playing. You know, and I will say that often. Oh, you heard some music before the words were ever exchanged. Because you've done this so many times.

Connie Cornwell: 23:35

Yes. Because it becomes it's automatic. Yeah. Automatic. Yeah.

Laurie Poole: 23:41

It's like there's a physiological response.

Connie Cornwell: 23:43

Yeah. And and they don't know another way yet. He did not know another way. And that's what the work is. And therapy was showing them. No,

Laurie Poole: 23:55

absolutely. Absolutely. What are some of the situations? I, you know, I'm I'm curious about where are the places that couples get tripped?

Connie Cornwell: 24:11

Yeah, where they, you know, when

Laurie Poole: 24:13

you talked earlier about? Well, we were in love, and now it feels like we're roommates.

Connie Cornwell: 24:20

Exactly. And I think that there's many places that couples can get tripped up, one of the ones that I always check on, is the birth of the first child. Yes. And see what happens with the couple is that, you know, the wife will feel like, well, you really weren't there for me. And you know, and the husband saying, but I held you your hand through the whole ordeal. But what the wife is saying, but you weren't there for me in a way I really needed you to be. And then the husband is saying, Well, you abandoned me because it became all about the baby, baby. And what happens in these scenarios is that this never gets talked about. The couple never has a conversation about how they're feeling. That's so true. That's true. Breast and invariably, when I work with couples, particularly younger couples, I'll ask about that incident and right there is a red flag. Yeah. And then they say start to really get back in feelings very, very quickly. And then those are what we call attachment wounds. And so they're still, even though the womb may be baby five, 610 years old, they're still both bleeding from it. That's right. They never talked through it, they never resolved. And so we have to go back. And we have to kind of help them net up with each other.

Laurie Poole: 25:54

That's right, exactly. And for our listeners who may be in that situation, I just want to remind you that there is an earlier podcast in a conversation with Jason and Christian called postpartum and relationships. And they talk about that very thing a week after the birth of their daughter. And they talk about the firt, the birth of their first daughter, and how different the second one was. But all of these things came up about how to ask for what you need to remember that you were a team. You were a couple before the baby came, and you will be a couple throughout, but the focus on how you communicate and the combination of a life event that changes you in ways you can't even imagine. And of course, then we're not talking about it.

Connie Cornwell: 26:45

Exactly. Well. And you know, I can imagine young couples are not talking about because, one, they may have some shame about what they're feeling, you know? Absolutely. Why should I be jealous of our new son or daughter, and the mom may feel like she's got a lot of mixed lifting feelings, and she doesn't feel like she can share them. So and they don't have time.

Laurie Poole: 27:12

That's right. And they're exhausted. Yeah, they're exhausted,

Connie Cornwell: 27:15

and there's no time. Now, kind of want to go back over these attachment wounds. The, of course, you know, the main key attachment wounds that most of us who do couples work are faced with is the issue around infidelity. Yes. Probably half the couples I've seen has to do within fidelity. That's right. It may be something that's current, or it may be something that's way back in the history. That's right, exactly. But it's a kind of wound that you do have to help support them in working through.

Laurie Poole: 27:59

That's right. It's the other thing I noticed, too. And I I agree with you, Connie, I would say probably 50% of the couples with whom I work, infidelity of some kind, is the issue that they present when they come in. And these days, there's different kinds of infidelity.

Connie Cornwell: 28:18

Absolutely. There's many, many kinds. There's the kinds where it's an act of sexual involvement, or it may be an emotional involvement. And the emotional, emotional environment is the kind that takes the partner away. Yes, the partner to withdraw and seek comfort elsewhere. That's right. And that's a form of infidelity as well. Um, you know, my old supervisor used to say that infidelity or affairs, he dumped the marriage. And they do. And sometimes that's exactly what gets a couple into therapy. That's right. And we're really able to do some really good work with them, because then they can pause and look at, you know, what, what's going on? How does that affair fit into the crazy dance that they're caught in? Yes. It certainly takes a partner away from the other partner. Right?

Laurie Poole: 29:18

That's right. And it certainly injures things like trust. And, and the other piece of it is that the hurt partner, in addition to the sense of betrayal, then often suffers tremendous self doubt. Anger, how could I have been so stupid? Why didn't I see the signs? How could I not have known? Am I not good enough? What am I lacking? How could How could he or she have done that? It becomes a form of self punishment almost in the self doubt and the humiliation and shame in addition to the betrayal.

Connie Cornwell: 30:02

Exactly. And the person who is committing the betrayal actually often feels like they have some sense of lack of self worth. Because they feel like they couldn't go to their partner with their intimacy needs are to really go their partner to really talk. And so they avoided by getting involved with someone else. Yes, so You know, as you start to tease these things out, it's interesting all the factors that go into this phenomena called infidelity.

Laurie Poole: 30:37

Connie, what are your thoughts about the ability or the potential for repair when there's been infidelity in a relationship?

Connie Cornwell: 30:45

In my experience, if the couples sitting in front of me are both wanting the marriage wanting their relationship, and they are no longer involved in the affair, it's truly over. I think there is great potential for repair. And I've seen the repair. Now I have witnessed it firsthand, where couples have been able to come back together and actually learned it as a way to understand better themselves and each other. Yes. See? So I think I don't get too excited about finding out there's been a fair, no, I see it, as you're telling me that there's this thing in your relationship that isn't secure. You say, yeah. And that we have to look at, you know, those components and what contributed to it, and how to get you guys to start looking at each other for safety and security, and intimacy. That's right, so that so that they can create the safe haven? That's right. So the affair will give them to this.

Laurie Poole: 32:03

I agree with you 100%. I think that for the couples who can't who, with whom I've worked, many more have stayed together than to have decided to end the marriage. And usually, that's because one of the partners is already out before they come in. You know, and so I think that my experience has certainly been that it's when they get into therapy, they do, they learn a lot about each other, but they learn a lot about themselves. Because this kind of work, you have to understand what happens within effects flows between. So so important, I think this this model of couples therapy requires that each partner really go within and to be curious to learn to be curious, what happens for me when what just happened for me right now, and to notice and pay attention. And that's when when we can work that way. It helps couples when they come in to talk about themselves rather than each other.

Connie Cornwell: 33:09

Absolutely. Well, I don't allow them to talk about the other because the others in the room? That's right, exactly. talk for themselves. But you know, what you're pointing out is, what we're doing is helping couples learn again, how to be present with each other. Because so much of what they've been doing has been withdrawing or avoiding or even in, in the, in the partner who's pursuing, they're not always pursuing clearly about what the need really is. You see, so it's about helping them to actually turn towards each other. And you know, and I know, couples work, when those partners in session, maybe session eight or nine are starting to turn towards each other without being prompted, you know, that we're, it's moving. Things are changing. That's right. You know, what's so interesting, fascinating to me, and I know you've had this experience is where you're coming to that in stage of couples work. And the couples sitting there in front of you having this conversation about topics that when you first saw them would have taken the Munder right. That's it in this intense fight that now you're sitting there observing this, they kind of forget you're even present. That's exactly right. That's phenomenal, phenomenal conversation. They're working through all these things. And then, you know, I look at them, I say, Do you realize that that was the thing that used to really get you upset and they look at me like a really? There's, there's no memory of it? That's right.

Laurie Poole: 34:48

No, it's really it. That's what makes the work. So rewarding, is when I'm in the room and the conversations happening between a couple and I'm like, you know, this is this is great. This is they can do this. This is a whole other ball of wax compared to when they first came in.

Connie Cornwell: 35:07

It's, it's fascinating. And what I love about that is that it says to me, they have taken true ownership. Thank you, they have taken ownership. They now have new skills and they are putting them to use.

Laurie Poole: 35:24

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And it makes it It's just so rewarding to see couples come in to be and they report we were, you know, we we hit this little hiccup but we were able to talk through it and I'll ask what did you do? And they'll talk about slowing things down or taking a pause when things get escalated. And it's fantastic to see the evolution of the relationship.

Connie Cornwell: 35:52

Now, as we're talking, and you were, we were talking about those attachment wounds. There's another one I do want to bring up that that I know you have worked with as well, is that if one of the partners becomes ill, yes. And what happens is that the relationship gets put by the wayside, in the focus, and rightly so many cases, becomes all about the illness. That's right. And often, we have had couples come to the Family Study Center who have one, or maybe you both have been struggling with some kind of chronic illness, and the relationship has not been nurtured. Because everything becomes about the sickness. Yes. And so we have to gently remind them that, hey, there's a relationship here. That's beyond the illness.

Laurie Poole: 36:58

That's right. That's right. I had the privilege of working with a couple last year who came to see me. And there was a chronic terminal illness in the relationship that they were both struggling with. I mean, the news was quite recent. And the relief for them to be able to talk about how they feel about each other, to say things with one another. They hadn't said before, for the partner who would be the caretaker to talk about their fear and sadness and not wanting to burden because then the talking stops, because both parties don't want to burden the other. Yeah, it was really Connie, it was really a privilege to work with this couple because they have a long road ahead of them. And the illness could have easily become a third party in the relationship, where neither one of them would turn to each other for connection. Right and soothing. We talked about the relationship becoming a sanctuary of safety, trust, soothing, comforting, I know that when I reach for you, you will respond. And boy, when there's a terminal or chronic illness in the relationship, a lot of that can fall by the side.

Connie Cornwell: 38:25

Right. And you know, fear comes into play. Yes. And the fear sometimes keeps us from connecting. That's right.

Laurie Poole: 38:34

It can be very isolating. Yes.

Connie Cornwell: 38:37

Very nice. Very, very nice.

Laurie Poole: 38:40

Connie, the other thing I wanted to talk to you about was couples and trauma, because I'm seeing more trauma experienced by one of the partners in couples coming in. And that requires perhaps not a different approach necessarily with a slower approach. It can be trauma that has perhaps not been fully shared with the other partner, like molestation, sexual abuse as a child for both men and women. Yeah. And so on. How do you what approach do you employ when you're working with trauma and a couple?

Connie Cornwell: 39:25

Well, I think you're right, the work goes slower. But I also believe in what Sue Johnson said very clearly to quote her. When facing our monsters, it's good to know that we have somebody standing by us. And that's where I started to include partners in trauma work years and years ago, even before EFT because I realized when you're working through trauma, it's it's frightening. Caroline, you have all kinds of triggers. You have all kinds of flashback. If you have a partner that can stand with you, that will make that journey easier. So you have to deal with the trauma in the couples work because it also feeds the crazy dance. Absolutely. And often I've worked with couples where you know, maybe the female partner is awakening to some earlier sexual abuse. And the male partner kind of knew the story, but not really. Yes. And then when the female partner begins to get in touch with those primary feelings around the trauma and start expressing it, often the male partner will light up and say, Oh, wow. Now I understand, yes, when we been having sex, I thought maybe you weren't into me. And now I get that it's a major trigger, that you do escape, you do go elsewhere?

Laurie Poole: 41:09

That's right, I go somewhere else where I feel safer in my head, I go somewhere else and not present.

Connie Cornwell: 41:14

Exactly. And I think it's, you're not doing even if you are just working with traumatized people, if you are not including their partners, somehow in the work, if not every session, somehow, in certain sessions that you set up with both of them. I don't think you're doing your due diligence, because the other partner is so directly impacted by

Laurie Poole: 41:42

Absolutely. And what I've seen, too, is that the other partner begins to believe there's something about them, as you mentioned, and or is full of self recrimination that they didn't recognize or pick up on the trauma years before.

Connie Cornwell: 42:00

Right. Now, what's really difficult. And we've had cases like this Family Study Center is where both partners we start to reveal that they've had trauma, the now you're working with a couple where each of them have had trauma in their past. So work is much, much slower.

Laurie Poole: 42:20

Yes. And you can spend a longer time in that reactive. You know, there's all these stages to EFT and a lot of the first, the early part of the work is trying to distill the emotions and to create safety. But it can take a lot longer, I think with couples where they have both had trauma, right, it's it's so scary,

Connie Cornwell: 42:46

it's frightening. And I I find myself being doing a little more psychoeducation with those, those couples, because they need to know how trauma, even though it's maybe long ago in their history, still impacts them today. So often, you're going slow, you're providing safety, safety, that's a big key to the work. And you're also helping them understand that the trauma does impact them. And sometimes the survival mode they learned early on in life is no longer working now. And they're not even realizing, Oh, that's my survival behavior.

Laurie Poole: 43:29

That's right, they develop strategies for survival when they're younger, that really no longer serve them, or get in the way of having safe secure adult attachment with their

Connie Cornwell: 43:40

partner. And so you know, you want to help them understand all that and explain to them that that's quite normal. You know, it's kind of how we're wired as human beings. That's right. So, you know, I often find him working with these couples. No, we're going slow. I'm always checking to make sure they feel safe in the process. Yeah, and also just doing little psychoeducation. You know, I want you to understand this is normal. This is okay. We're going to get through this.

Laurie Poole: 44:10

No, that's right. Exactly. Exactly. Well, Connie, we've we've been around the room on relationships in our in our straight talk today. What resources are there any resources that you would recommend to couples who are struggling? Or who would like to know more?

Connie Cornwell: 44:31

Well, I think you know, I'm sure you recommend this to sue Johnson's book written for the lay person will be tying Muay Thai. It's quite good. And also, her other book Love Sense, which is filled with more research, which some people like reading is also a good book too. So people can begin, you know, on their own reading these kinds of things, and learning more about it, and of course, referring them to a good couples therapist.

Laurie Poole: 45:02

That's right. I think all of those things can help recalibrate a relationship and help couples remember why they came together in the first place and what they loved about each other and find new ways to connect and to feel safe and secure in their relationship.

Connie Cornwell: 45:25

Yeah, and you know, being a couple isn't Not easy.

Unknown: 45:29

No, it's not.

Connie Cornwell: 45:31

Like happens to us, and unexpected things happen to us. And so in some ways, it's probably an ongoing test of the security of our religion.

Laurie Poole: 45:45

Well, and I think the other, you know, to your point is that we also change over time, we evolve over the lifespan. Yeah. And how I am as a partner at this time in my life versus how I was 30 years ago is probably quite different. Yeah. And so when you learn how to connect and what you need, and how to express what's happening for you, with your partner, that becomes a pretty secure foundation. Yeah, structure of your relationship.

Connie Cornwell: 46:15

To your point. Seems like two years ago, we were having a lot of older couples showing up at the Family Study Center. Now, these are couples in their 70s and 80s. Wow. And what was fascinating is that they were seeing us because they didn't want to have anything incomplete. They wanted resolution. And some of them had some really old in their relationship that they really had never talked about or work through. And so they were bringing it to us, to help them, guide them through how to have a deeper conversation about these things, so that they can have a sense of completion towards their end of their life. Wow. It's fascinating. It was so much fun. It was fun working with them, too, because I thought how, even at this later stage ones, like it's never too late to clean up things and and to, you know, heal things and bring about a closer relationship.

Laurie Poole: 47:18

That's beautiful. What a wonderful note on which to end our conversation today. Connie, thank you so much for your time, your insight, and your expertise. I respect your work so much. And I know our listeners will get a lot of good information from our conversation today. So thank you so much,

Connie Cornwell: 47:39

Cory, thank you for inviting me. And this was so much fun. I you know, I love talking with you about these things. And so thank you.

Laurie Poole: 47:47

Well, thank you. And thank you to our listeners. You can get more at the Montfort group.com. And I'll look forward to our to another conversation down the road. Connie, thank you so much.

Connie Cornwell: 48:02

Thank you, Laurie. All right. Take care. Bye bye