Therapist Unplugged
Welcome to Therapist Unplugged – Real Talk from Real Therapists.
Hosted by Laurie Poole of The Montfort Group, this podcast pulls back the curtain on what really happens in and around the therapy room. No jargon, no perfection—just honest conversations about the messy, meaningful, and deeply human parts of life.
We cover everything from burnout and boundaries to sex, shame, relationships, parenting, grief, identity shifts, and mental health in the modern world. Each episode features licensed therapists who get it—because we live it too.
If you're looking for emotional insight without the clinical lecture, you're in the right place.
New episodes drop regularly.
Subscribe, listen in, and stay a little more human with us.
Therapist Unplugged
From Tinder to Polyamory: Redefining Love, Trust, and Commitment
Can one relationship meet all your needs? In this eye-opening episode of Therapist Unplugged, married couple Leland and McKenzie share how their connection evolved from a casual Tinder hookup to a deeply committed polyamorous marriage.
With raw honesty and humor, they explore what it takes to build trust, communicate openly, and challenge traditional relationship norms. From navigating jealousy to redefining intimacy, their story is full of insights for anyone curious about ethical non-monogamy, polyamory, or simply wanting to improve communication in monogamous relationships.
Whether you're questioning societal expectations or just want a deeper look at what honesty in partnership really means, this conversation will shift your perspective.
Key Topics:
- Ethical non-monogamy & polyamory
- Communication in modern relationships
- Trust and emotional transparency
- Letting go of unrealistic expectations
- Love beyond traditional structures
Quote Highlight:
"Being able to tell your partner ‘I find this person attractive’—just something as simple as that—removes so many barriers of other things to communicate about." — McKenzie
🎙️ Therapist Unplugged is produced by The Montfort Group, a boutique therapy practice based in Plano, Texas, helping individuals, couples, and families build emotionally intelligent, connected lives.
Subscribe for real conversations with real therapists—because healing doesn’t happen in perfect soundbites.
To learn more about our team or schedule a session, visit: www.themontfortgroup.com
Follow us on Instagram: @themontfortgroup
Welcome to Therapist Unplugged. This is Laurie Poole from the Montford Group, your host of Therapist Unplugged, and today I am delighted to welcome Leland and Mackenzie. This is a very special couple who have been together for four years and married for two, and they are in a polyamorous relationship, which is the subject of our podcast today. So welcome, mackenzie and Leland. I'm so thrilled to have you both here for what I know is going to be a very interesting, perhaps controversial or provocative discussion about relationships and what we understand about them, and, most specifically, to hear more about your experience in your marriage and in your relationship, as well as your relationship with other people, because polyamory refers to multiple romantic, sexual or intimate relationships with knowledge and consent of all partners. Okay, I pulled that right off the internet, okay, so thanks, google yes, thank you, dr google.
Laurie Poole:So tell me about your experience. Let's start with how did you guys meet?
McKenzie:So that goes back to not long after COVID, when restrictions got lifted. I was working a couple cities away and I got on Tinder was looking for a one night stand, essentially because I had just gone out of a relationship where I found out the person I'd been with was cheating on me. For more than half of it I was like. I'm done with relationships right now. Not doing that and stumbled upon him and he shows up at my front door later that night with a duffel bag and a dream.
Laurie Poole:A duffel bag and a dream a duffel bag and a dream.
Leland:She. She's leaving out the uh, the, the some of the specific details. There was a duffel bag full of sex toys.
McKenzie:Um yeah yeah, yeah, we're just diving right in with that.
Leland:But maybe you know for uh, um, you know self-preservation instincts on her part because I mean, you know random guy off of uh, you know off Tinder, you know shows up with a double bag full of sex toys, wearing hiking boots. Yeah, I was in my full like dad uniform, but you know, I just, yeah, I was supposed to be a one-minute stand and I don't know, I guess I'm just too charming.
McKenzie:Yeah, we were always very open with each other.
Laurie Poole:So it started with what was intended to be a one-night stand, with a duffel bag full of sex toys. Yeah, how did he-- how did it evolve into a polyamorous scenario?
Leland:well, so I I had um, uh, I had, let's gosh, probably two years before I started going to therapy for just some personal life experience stuff and trauma, and I'm a veteran, so I had a lot of things to kind of work through and kind of through that process. Just reading a just reading. You know a lot about, you know philosophy, human sexuality, I read, I was reading like Sex at Dawn and I came across the ethical slut and just kind of like engaging with a lot of that stuff.
Leland:You know, I kind of started to accept, you know that my own sexuality, that you know, I uh didn't feel like I was necessarily straight, uh, you know, or uh, gay or anything in particular, um, and I, you know, that kind of begs the question, well, like, well, how does that play into, like the distant relationship that I already have? Um, and I can understand that I I would probably best describe myself as polyamorous came to understand that I would probably best describe myself as polyamorous. The relationship that I was in ended not long after that, mackenzie and I met, and so, because I had gained like so much personally, you know, with kind of like coming to that understanding of myself, I figured, you know, whether we're dating, if we're just hooking up, whatever, we're having a good time, but I still need to be honest with this person about who I am, and you know, uh, what's, you know, uh, how I like to engage with other people. And so I, you know, told her from the get go I'm polyamorous, I'm in a uh relationship with multiple other people at, you know, at their relationships with other people at the moment, relationships with multiple other people. At you know, our relationships with other people at the moment.
Leland:You know, I get tested regularly, you know, just trying to be as open and honest about it as I could, and this is all you know, like while we're, you know, in the shower cleaning up, you know after, you know, after our first, first time, hanging out and and I was fully expecting that that would be that, that'd be it, you know it'd be a turn off, you know, like she probably wouldn't be interested in you know and seeing me again and she absolutely was. Um, you know, we, you know, kept uh, um, you know, just kind of casually hooking up, you know, for a few weeks and she sent me a text one night and I misunderstood what she was asking. She asked she sent me a test, asking what, what do you want?
Leland:um and I was trying to be cute and flirty and, uh, dirty talk okay and uh getting a little spicy yeah, yeah, but I, you know, I realized, you know, like I was interested in her, uh, but I wasn't necessarily at a point where I felt like it was like I was ready to say anything. But when she asked that question and I misunderstood and thought like, oh, she asked me, do I want something more out of the relationship?
McKenzie:my immediate response was I'd like to date you, um, and she and I responded with why you know I don't like children, because he had two children from a previous relationship yeah I, I just told her, like, look, I'm.
Leland:All I'm saying is that, like we have a lot of fun, you know, in the bedroom we can probably have fun and laugh while we eat food, um, so I'm not asking you to, like, take care of my kids or anything, I just want to go out on a date. You know, um, and uh, we've been together ever since.
McKenzie:Spoiler alert I actually do like kids a lot.
Laurie Poole:Surprise, surprise, mackenzie, do you remember what it was like for you, you know, when Leland was so direct about the fact that he was in relationships with other people, how you responded to that, or kind of what came up for you when you heard that?
McKenzie:um, it was refreshing just the honesty there, and especially because at the time I was really just I didn't want to date anyone, I didn't want anything serious. So I felt like some of that pressure was removed there from my particular situation. I had never been in a polyamorous relationship before that. Um, I had never done that myself personally or really even considered that.
Leland:I always considered myself to be monogamous and I'm I think I told you that too like that was, yeah, something we discussed, and so when you first started dating, you know, I mean she, uh, you know like I'd check in, you know, with her about how she was feeling, about everything. Uh, you know fairly regularly, um, like initially at the beginning, really, we, we actually like I scheduled sort of like actual like check-ins, like just to make sure that we were, you know, we were on the same page, or that she, that her feelings hadn't changed and maybe she hadn't figured out how to communicate it yet, but, um, uh, but yeah, when we, when we first started dating in earnest, uh, uh, she still identified as monogamous.
McKenzie:Yeah, um, and I think, just over time, so we just started casually dating basically, and then I mean eventually dating basically, and then I mean eventually, uh, we became boyfriend, girlfriend. That sounds so like high school now that it's funny. But yeah, and I'm just uh, so, full disclosure, I, when we met I was still drinking and since then I've gone through a sobriety journey and I no longer no longer drink and I'm a much better person for it. I've gone to therapy myself, um, and I've grown a lot as a person and started realizing a lot of things from my life previously and realizing I did have more a lot of things from my life previously and realizing I did have more tendencies that would point towards polyamory than I did.
McKenzie:Monogamy it was just when I was not in a healthy space myself. Then that wasn't something I could ever consider, so I didn't, I was the outlier. And okay, now I'm with this person and I feel so safe, like I felt safe from day one with reland I. I don't know why, because, as he said, the self-preservation should not like should have kicked in somewhere. He should. It's also late at night, it was like it was like almost two in the morning.
Laurie Poole:Yeah, yeah it was two o'clock in the morning when you showed up, yeah, yeah um what's not to trust, I think um um, you know it's.
Leland:It's certainly something that you can't approach from a place of, like, personal instability, like like it's. It's not a thing to try like if you are, like, if your your relationship's in free fall, or something.
McKenzie:You know um uh because there were times when I was going through rougher parts of becoming sober, that, uh, that he wasn't seeing anyone else or pursuing anything, cause I also at that point I wasn't really realizing that I would want to be polyamorous as well and, um, basically, just, we had to focus on us and on me for a little while, so we didn't explore anything with anyone else for for a decent period of time I don't know that we ever like.
Leland:The relationships that I was in kind of just yeah, they just kind of ran their course. You know I was, I was dating three other people at the time, which was exciting and fun, and I was getting to sort of explore. I was speedrunning realizing that you're polyamorous, I suppose.
McKenzie:Being single, realizing you're polyamorous and realizing you're pansexual for the first time.
Leland:Oh yeah, sure.
McKenzie:He was on a mission.
Leland:You were a busy man.
Leland:Yeah, so I, like Mackenzie, I had always lived a monogamous lifestyle and at times it was a challenge. I would you know I would. Anytime I would feel like an attraction to another person, I would you know I would feel what I thought was guilt. But looking at it more, I think that it was that I was expecting to feel guilt, and so I was sort of like almost like pantomiming it. You know like I was, I was beating myself up and then would be really confused about why I was upset. You know like I was, I was beating myself up, uh, and then would just be really confused about why I was upset.
Leland:You know about that, you know, almost like having an even more extreme reaction than a person who actually, you know, is monogamous. So it took a long time for me to really kind of understand what that was and kind of and accept it in myself. Um, you know, I I was never like a cheater or anything like that, but uh, I mean, I certainly, you know, wanted to, um and uh, you know, just never really understood how to communicate that. And when I finally did have that realization, while I was in the relationship I was in, um, uh, you know, not proposing that I have relationships with other people, just explaining that, hey, I'm recognizing that I am attracted to people who are not always female presenting, people who are not always male presenting. I'm just attracted to people and I'm also, at the very least, I have the capacity for having relationships with other people.
Laurie Poole:Not saying that I wanted to, but that relationship.
Leland:Yeah, it quickly turned really toxic and you know that's a whole nother. You know I'm very curious about when?
Laurie Poole:sorry, go ahead oh no you're fine. I'm sorry, I just I was curious about when. Did the two of you know that you were ready to, or that you could consider other partners for one another?
Leland:So I, you know, literally like from the, from the day that we started dating until now, I have always, know, always, you know, made sure it's clear that, whether I'm in a relationship with another person or not, you know that's, that's a core part of who I am, so I need to be able to express that.
McKenzie:Um, but uh, as for for you, uh, probably when I had a decent foothold in sobriety and I had actually, uh, gone to some therapy and I at first it was more, um, just exploring things together, Like I wouldn't pursue anything on my own or anything like that.
Leland:It was always other couples or so we, we, um, we, uh, uh, we definitely like, we went to, um, there's a like, there's a club out here in uh, dfw, uh, we've gone to a few times. There's some overlap between sort of like the swinger community and you know a lot of like communities and things like that, um, and so we we uh, just through that, through dating apps, we had some, you know uh, sexual encounters with other individuals, other couples, um, and so you think that's kind of like, what kind of like?
McKenzie:yeah, I think so it was. It was, uh, being more secure and confident in myself and having those self-actualizations and realizations. I don't know that I could say that there's a set date or point or one particular thing that made me have that realization, but over time it progressed and we've always had like, even if we weren't seeing other people, we've always had conversations about people we find attractive and are very open about sexual things.
McKenzie:We'll talk about things that we've done previously with other people, like. It's always been very open in that sense. So, even if physically we weren't doing things with other people, that's always been a big communication point for us is expressing those feelings that, oh, I, I flirted with this guy today and like that made me feel good. Or like, oh, this person's hot. Or like we have we have an ongoing game of um, of what celebrities or well-known figures have been pegged, would be pegged, do pegging would be in, just, you know the whole scope of pegging like and it's gone to the point where we can just look at each other and like, name someone. The other person goes, oh yeah, they totally have, and they would do it again, or they've tried it or no, that's never so. It's like it's just kind of a I don't know, it's just, it's a funny thing for us.
Leland:So you feel, like the like, the sort of like, getting over, like the hurdle of like the sex with, like with other people was like what kind of opened you up to the idea of like emotional intimacy with other people?
McKenzie:Yes, and getting past feeling like I was going to get in trouble Because there's there's still like that part of me that's conditioned by society. I'm sure you can't be with more than one person like you, or you shouldn't, and you shouldn't even express to your partner that you find somebody else attractive, because that's going to make them jealous. And the more I realized I could even just express those feelings to him without that eliciting a negative reaction, the more it was like okay, so this isn't like a gotcha yeah, no, there's not like another shoe that's going to drop or something like that.
Laurie Poole:Yeah can we talk about jealousy for a moment, because you know you just brought it up, mckenzie and I think for traditional couples who are in a more monogamous situation, you know the question is how could you not get jealous, like, how do you hold space for each other when there are other people in the orbit? And I think jealousy is something that comes up for a lot of people who don't understand the lifestyle or how this works.
McKenzie:I think jealousy is probably like the biggest hurdle, I think for most people not for us, but I so insecure in themselves that they can't open up that space. They can't possibly see opening up that space for another person. And when you are happy with yourself, you're able to look at your partner and go oh, x, y, z makes me happy. That makes me happy too, like.
Leland:I feel like the kind of the polar opposite of like jealousy is is compersion, and maybe I'm wrong about that, but it's how it feels, at least for me. So you know feeling, you know joy and excitement at your partner or person. You care about feeling joy and excitement, um, uh, and I mean you know that you could feel compersion about, you know about them, you know being excited about a new job or something, but um, uh, yeah, I, I find um, like the excitement of like of new relationship, energy, both for me and for my partners. I find it fascinating about it, intoxicating. It's fun to be around people who are joyous and happy and excited and curious and exploring. So, at least for me, compersion is probably more common than feeling jealousy. But that doesn't mean that I don't ever feel jealousy and I mean I suppose we haven't really like. Have you ever hit upon a moment like where you felt jealous?
McKenzie:Yes.
Laurie Poole:Okay, early on in our I'm curious.
McKenzie:Yeah, yeah, early on into our relationship, when you were talking to other people and stuff like before you had like, when you were starting when I was still feeling monotonous. I I felt some jealousy when I would hear you were talking to those other people, but also I was accepting of it because they were there before me, so I knew that was a fact and a reality of the situation, that if I was dating him, these other people are already there.
McKenzie:Okay, that's. But yeah, I definitely say still every once in a while, like if you're talking to a new person, I will feel that for a second, just because I'm like that attention is not focused on me.
McKenzie:I love attention. I really the attention because I want something. Why would I take from him that happiness he's feeling talking to this other person, flirting with this other person, having a relationship with this other person, Even if he doesn't do that to me? All he wants is for me to have happiness on me and for me to be jealous of him being happy is stupid really I think that, yeah, I mean jealousy is a perfectly valid emotion, right, I mean it's.
Leland:You know, everyone experiences it, you know, I mean, well, I assume um, uh, but um it's I think it serves a purpose, uh, you know to to some degree, um, but just like any other negative emotion, I mean, the greatest antidote is it's talking, right, it's, it's it's considering how you feel, considering how you, you know, other people involved might feel, and then talking about that, you know, with each other. Yeah, so there have been a few times where I've felt like, you know, maybe I was like jealous of her current relationship, so the guy that we're going to, we're going to go out with on Friday, and when I have had those feelings, if I've sat with it for, you know, even a few minutes and really just kind of like, rather than try to push it down or ignore it or get frustrated, just sit with it, you know, feel it and then try to interrogate it. You know, where are you coming from? What is it that I feel like I'm not getting in theate it? You know where it's coming from. What is it that I feel like I'm not getting in the moment here?
Leland:And usually it's something very, you know, minor and superficial. That you know like, um, you know, I should, like I was trying to, you know, communicate with you, like earlier today, like you know, send you a text message or something and I didn't really get a response. But you responded to him, you know, seemingly fairly quickly, when I was at home, right, um, and you know, so that might like that's. That's that that happened recently, where I felt like a twinge of what felt like jealousy at the moment. Um, but the more that I thought about it, what it really was was that I just I, I felt like I needed to be heard, you know, I just I, I was, you know I just I wanted to feel like my right, well, like what I was trying to communicate was also important.
Leland:But you know, also thinking about that, you know even further, he's experiencing a lot of new relationship, energy right now, and it's it's like this guy who's having a new toy right. You're excited, you're having fun. It's the thing you're going to react to a lot more readily, and that's not going to change anything about our relationship. It's not going to make me go away. I'm not going anywhere, she's not going anywhere. So what is there to be anxious or concerned about?
McKenzie:and furthermore, he came to me and told me he was having these feelings. So we were able to talk about it and I was able to even tell him that time where he wasn't able to reach me, I had had my phone on silent because I'd had a negative interaction with a family member and I just needed to distance myself from my phone for a little bit. So I hadn't talked to anybody for about an hour.
Leland:So I've actually that was it.
Laurie Poole:Could the two of you define or describe your relationship within the spectrum of polyamory, because there isn't one size fits all.
McKenzie:Oh, there, definitely is.
Laurie Poole:There's a whole spectrum. So how would you describe your situation? So is the primary relationship between the two of you.
McKenzie:Yes, yeah, we are married legally and I don't plan on being married to anybody else or anything like that. Um, so we are a primary relationship. Both of us, uh, are open to having, I say, boyfriends, girlfriends, I'm bi, he's pan, so we're kind of on the spectrum there, um, and really it's a case-by-case basis. As far as another person goes, whether we would have a relationship, both of us would have a relationship with them. One of us like either. But, um, are we're? We're on a podcast about sex and polyamory, Okay, so, uh, we fascinated to see where this is going.
Leland:Yeah, I'm curious.
McKenzie:We both can pretty much have sex with whoever we want to. That is consenting, as long as there's communication between the two of us. He could go to the grocery store and meet somebody and then hook up in the parking lot and tell me about it after, and that I wouldn't consider it cheating. If he didn't tell me about it, that would be cheating. And on the flip side of that, if he was texting somebody and not telling me in a romantic way, that would be cheating.
McKenzie:Because you weren't informed, it seems to me that communication is such a key piece of this. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. And there have been times where we've said to each other like Um, and there have been times where we've said to each other like, hey, I think this might not be a safe person. Let's consider this thing about them. They're going through these things in their life right now, so I don't think they're necessarily the most stable, but if that's something you want to pursue, that's just. We'll never say no.
Leland:We don't really do any sort of like you, you know, like there's not like a veto power kind of thing, right, one of us is just like no, absolutely not.
Leland:Um, I mean, if I were to feel uncomfortable about someone, I'm going to voice that, but um, and I'm sure she would as well, uh, as mad as we have um, but um, but that's a discussion that we're going to have, right, you know, we're equals in the relationship and we consider at least for my partner, I think you agree, but, like we consider the other people that we are also in relationships with to be equal in, you know, our relationship, decisions about our marriage with other people or our home with other people, unless I don't know at some point we, you know, we build a you know, yeah, you know all the bombs.
Leland:Yeah, yeah, because we should talk about that earlier maybe um, but uh, um, but any, anything else, you know it's, it's, it's a, it's a conversation that we're going to need to have.
McKenzie:And we respect each other enough that we respect each other's viewpoint to take that into consideration, as long as you're not coming at them with something ridiculous.
Laurie Poole:Did the two of you? How did you discuss boundaries and what was acceptable, not acceptable, like I've heard reference to, you know checking, being tested for sexually transmitted infections, for example, or being open about who you're talking to. But I'm wondering you know if there are other boundaries you've put in place so that you feel, continue to feel secure in the relationship between the two of you as the primary? Because it seems to me you haven't said it quite like this, but the but, the security in the relationship between the two of you, is also what facilitates the open communication and the ability to share distress, worry, jealousy, maybe not feeling as what, questioning importance, etc. It's, it's the security, it's the foundation in your primary relationship that allows you both to tolerate or to really enjoy what other people bring to the relationship through these other parties, parties as in people.
Leland:Maybe there's parties too. Oh, yeah, sure, no, there's plenty of parties. No, I think that's a pretty apt way to put it. Uh, and the having that, that level of communication with each other. You know, and talking about things that for a lot of couples uh, you know particularly people you know who would identify as purely monogamous those conversations might be relationship enders. You know what I mean Like, and these are conversations that we have, you know on the regular Having conversations like that and getting comfortable with you know sometimes being uncomfortable.
Leland:It improves, it has improved, at least for us how to parent, you know our children how to you know how to handle. You know our, our home or finances. You know our personal lives outside of. You know sex and relationships work, because you know we like for a lot of people, I think that you know conversations about jealousy or how they might feel about other people would are. Those are like, those are the, the huge, huge things you know that can really impact how they see the other person. That's right and and it's just it's kind of an everyday occurrence for us, right, yeah, um, so I mean I certainly wouldn't say that you know being you polyamorous or practicing relationship anarchy or some sort of like you know kitchen table polyamory or well, I mean that's that's a relationship.
McKenzie:Anarchy.
Laurie Poole:I haven't heard. I haven't heard that expression before. I love it.
Leland:Um, but uh you know, but uh, they're. They're not for everyone, but I think at the very least, engaging with the idea is that they present the philosophical questions that they ask about, you know, just being human. I think that those can be important, and even people who are monogamous can probably at least learn something from it. I mean, I certainly learned, you know, a lot about who I am from living a monogamous lifestyle for so long and I mean you're also.
McKenzie:We're not saying that everybody everywhere should be polyamorous no, no, no monogamy is people shouldn't that's true.
Laurie Poole:A lot of people shouldn't you know, what I would say, too, is that many, many people have affairs. Yes, they do so. Monogamy is probably, it's not a misnomer, but the fact is that people step outside of a relationship frequently, and even outside of sex.
McKenzie:Well, yes, yes, polyamory looks different for everyone.
Laurie Poole:Yeah, certainly it does. But I think what I find very fascinating in terms of how things have changed is the expectation that one person can fulfill all of their partner's needs, because marriage, for example, has shifted and morphed over the years. Example has shifted and morphed over the years. It's not based on economics the way it was, you know, a gazillion years ago. Now there is an expectation that you will take care of my emotional needs, that you will be my best friend, that you will have a relentless empathy, that you will show up as a partner in parenting.
Laurie Poole:There's all of these expectations that we package, you know, into one person, which is an impossible mandate to fulfill, and it seems to me that you know what you're describing also then allows, in some ways, the best parts of yourselves to come together where you can meet one another's needs and when you need something else, there is another person to whom you, with whom you can engage yeah, whatever the heck that is, whether it's sexual, go do things with, et cetera, but it's, in some ways, it gives you a little more freedom, at least as I'm understanding it from what you've described. It gives you more freedom to be yourself, because there's not this pressure that you're supposed to meet all the needs of one person, which, as I understand it at this stage in my life, is pretty hard to do.
McKenzie:It's impossible.
Leland:Yeah, I mean you could be monogamous and still not expect all of that from one person.
McKenzie:Exactly.
Leland:But really those relationship styles were better served when our society was structured differently. Everything was spread out and people were more community oriented, in that you knew a lot of your neighbors I know two of mine and that's because I go out of my way to talk to them. But most everywhere else I've ever lived I knew almost no one around me, right? So you have less people to give you input about things. You have less people to you know, just less stimulus in general, right?
McKenzie:Less community. Exactly yeah, Less built-in community.
Leland:Yeah, and maybe that's why polyamory is becoming more popular becoming yeah, becoming more of a popular, you know idea is that maybe that's sort of like a human reaction to that.
McKenzie:It's building community in another way yeah, that's right in that vein with things. Um, looking back, I can see that I've always had polyamorous tendencies, because my best friend, she, is a bisexual woman. She's married to a heterosexual man. Me and her have no romantic feelings for each other, but we spend so much time with each other and are in such communication that we really are. I'm in a polyamorous relationship with her because me and her are so close to each other, but she's married to her husband. So even though we don't have a romantic relationship, she, until I met Leland, really was kind of my husband to a degree.
Laurie Poole:Yeah. You know that brings up a really good question. I'm curious about the people that in with whom you have relationships. How do they navigate or work around you?
Leland:two and so I mean time is the enemy, right? There's only so much time in the day. You can't be everything to everyone all the time, right, but you want to try and give of yourself where you can, as needed, right. You can as needed, right. So, like a common joke, like in like you know, like you'll see in like Instagram accounts that are sort of like polyamory centric. You know the post memes where you know it's some reference to Google calendar or something right you know? Like that's, the real crux of any polyamorous relationship is how in-depth is your Google calendar? Right? Because you need to be able to structure things between each other.
McKenzie:Yeah, enough people, you got to start scheduling, like your Netflix binges and stuff.
Leland:So setting aside time for the people that you're in relationships with is really important. Um, sometimes that comes down to you know, actually, just you know directly scheduling, like I'm going to hang out with this person on this day at this time for this amount of time and then I'm going to go, you know, see my other partner or partners or whatnot. Um, uh, or you, or in some cases, like so I wanted to take Mackenzie and can we say his name.
McKenzie:He's fine with us saying his name.
Leland:I wanted to take Mackenzie and Chuck out this Friday because they've been kind of exploring their relationship a bit more and I like hanging out with them and I think I like hanging out with them and I think she really enjoyed just being pampered by two men at the same time.
McKenzie:Chuck is completely straight and he is also polyamorous. He's married as well and known him for about six months now, about five, six months months, yeah.
Leland:So just kind of uh exploring things as far as started as a friendship and now so sometimes it can be difficult to you know, to to carve out time, uh, you know, individually. Um, and I decided well, why don't we all just go out on a date together? It's not something we've done yet, right, could be fun, it might be, you know, it might be just kind of an awkward disaster because everybody's, like you know, looking at us and wondering what the hell's going on. Right, I will eat that shit up. Sorry, I don't know if I can curse or not.
Laurie Poole:It's okay, yeah.
Leland:I'll thrive in that. But I think it'll be an interesting, you know fun way to kind of spend our time, you know, together.
McKenzie:Which he actually set up the date Didn't tell me before.
Leland:I totally did tell her about it.
McKenzie:She just forgot, I've got a lot of things. I have a little fish brain sometimes.
Laurie Poole:Okay.
McKenzie:It's my kryptonite, but yeah. And then he was like, oh yeah, our date on Friday. And I'm like what? Huh? Oh, we have a date, I have a date on Friday. Okay, got it Cool. I need to pick out something to wear.
Laurie Poole:So, leland, have you met Chuck before?
Leland:Yeah, oh yeah, so she met him working a seasonal job and just like her talking to me about the people she worked with, and he came up a few times, I was like you kind of like that guy, huh, and she was like I don't know, and I was like I think you kind of like that guy.
McKenzie:I found out later from his wife that she actually made a joke about oh, is Mackenzie married to you as well now? Because he would come home and just Mackenzie, this Mackenzie.
Leland:So I think I might have just kind of picked up a little bit on it.
Laurie Poole:But um Leland. What about you introducing partners that you see or engage with to Mackenzie? Does that happen as well?
Leland:uh, so I well, let's see uh people that I, that I was dating when we first got together. I don't think you ever had the chance to meet.
McKenzie:No, I didn't.
Leland:Uh, and that was just because we were kind of in the early stages of our relationship. So, um, uh, I'm not in a relationship with anyone else right now, um, and that's mostly just because of what I do for for a living. Uh, my schedule is incredibly unpredictable, um and uh, so it's been hard to really kind of like put time into meeting anyone else right now. Um, I've been trying to uh, kind of, you know, do a little self-care in in that regard, because I've probably kind of sidelined that for work and family stuff a little too much, and recently it's made me feel just like a little like lost, you know, like I'm not fully expressing who I am.
Leland:And so I've been, you know, wading through the morass of the apps. You know and field and you know all of those and it's you know much harder for men, yeah, but but you know there have been a few people that I've talked with.
Leland:You know I've mentioned her or maybe I've involved her in the conversation, but nobody that I've actually, like you know, gone out and met. Yet just because half the time trying to find the you know available, you know a couple of hours to go do that is just hard but, as you know, just keep trying has there been any downsides to being polyamorous or any particular challenges that you've experienced? Not for me, honestly. I just the the you know juggling the time really, yeah and I still have some of that like laid in.
McKenzie:Uh, feel like I should feel guilty sometimes, so I'll have to like catch myself, like it'll be like oh hey, how's chuck? Because he texted me. And I'll be like oh hey, how's Chuck, because he texted me. And I'll be like, oh, I'm not texting, you know full well, I'm texting him right now. Like why? Because there's that little part that lives in your brain.
Leland:Smash that button and turn it into a kink.
McKenzie:I've been working on it yeah.
Laurie Poole:Some people may wonder what is the difference between polyamory and swinging?
Leland:may wonder what is the difference between polyamory and swinging. Well, I mean, I'm sure that that probably comes up, you know, because, like even in this conversation, like, we've talked a lot about sex, right, uh, that seems to be kind of, you know uh, centric, right, um, but that's what people are curious about in the, the swinger communities. I think that's that's kind of really where the, the focus is, purely um, there's certainly a lot less, you know, openness, uh, when it comes to people who are not, you know, just uh, explicitly straight room men yeah, like women.
McKenzie:Women with women's perfectly fine in the swinger community for the most part, but men being with anything but women in the swinger community for the most part, but men being with anything but women in the swinger community still has a lot of stigma around it. It seems like.
Leland:But I think the biggest difference is that most swinger relationships between couples it seems like they're not going to go much further beyond sex and being friends, right, like you know. If one person were to say, like you know, hey, I'm starting to develop feelings with you know, this other person, and I can't speak for everyone in the you know, in the swinger community, um, but uh, I think usually that would sort of be, uh, you know, taboo or that would be a line that would be crossed Right.
Leland:There's lots of, there's lots of. You know varying rules on. You know, like we're full swap couple or we're soft swap. You know which would be like. You know, like you know we'll go have sex with each other's partners, but you know, if we pull swap you'll, you'll do it in separate rooms, or or you know different places, soft swap being. You know that. You know it's the same word, right, yeah, um, or like you have some swinger couples have what they what they call like a, like a one dick policy, right, um? And sorry, I keep cursing, so I don't know if I can or not.
Leland:I'll try not to get you demonetized, um but, uh, um, but yeah, so you know, like you know, there only one, one man that can be involved with the women.
Leland:You know, which itself is obviously, you know, rooted in a lot of misogynistic you know garbage, but I will say that it seems like those things are slowly kind of changing with the times. Those things are slowly kind of changing with the times, um, I I would say, just from you know, from what I've seen, uh, uh, with people I've engaged with in the swinger communities, that um, just kind of exploring being swingers um is naturally going to force you to have to have some of the same conversations that we do, and so I think it could sort of be like a stepping stone to polyamorous relationships, yeah, yeah.
Laurie Poole:All right. Well, listen, I know we have like just a couple of minutes left. I'm wondering if there's anything that you would like to highlight or share before we close today. This has really been fascinating and very informative, just in terms of your own experience, and I really appreciate how open you both have been in sharing your story and your experience.
McKenzie:I think the most important thing that I would say I would want anybody to get from this is you don't have to be polyamorous to embrace communication. Because, again, not everybody can be an end, all be all to their partner. Nobody should have that pressure put on them to their partner. Nobody should have that pressure put on them. Being able to tell your partner I find this person attractive. Just something as simple as that, like that, removes so many barriers of other things to communicate about.
McKenzie:The less you feel the need to hide or not disclose to your partner, the better your relationship is going to be. And I, like I'm married to my best friend, like I'm lucky with that I wouldn't be able to communicate the way that I do if he wasn't my best friend, if he didn't make me feel so secure and so safe. And it's just, it's because of the communication that that I'm able to feel that way and I am able to fully embrace and be my whole heart and self in a way that I don't think I I ever could have even imagined before I. I swiped right on Tinder.
Laurie Poole:Swiping with a happy story.
Leland:So for my part, yeah, I mean I have to echo, you know, communication about everything else. Learn to get comfortable with feeling uncomfortable, because it's always fleeting. Get comfortable with feeling uncomfortable because it's always fleeting, like those feelings of discomfort or anxiety. They will pass. They'll pass because they have to. Your body can't stay in that, in that state, forever.
Leland:Um so yeah, engage with it, um, uh, I mean, I mean, whether you're religious or not, you know a little bit of, you know, zen Buddhism can, probably, you know, do you some good there, you know?
Leland:Or have a come to Jesus with yourself. Yeah, suffering is a part of life, right? Sometimes life hurts, right, don't be afraid to engage with that, because if you are, then you're not fully engaging with life. You're not fully engaging with your life, and once you get through that, all that's left is beauty being able to see the things in your partner that you wouldn't be able to see otherwise, just by virtue of being yourself. Right, they're going to have different reactions with different people, with different experiences. You know whether they're good or bad. Like, being able to see those things in a person that you really care about can only make you stronger and only make you look more also last thing um loving sex with other people outside of your marriage makes your sex in marriage better yeah definitely have a nice, nice uptick of very, very good sex when both of us have been satisfied elsewhere too.
McKenzie:Not to say, that's not great usually, but there there's something to it.
Laurie Poole:There's a reason why people have affairs.
McKenzie:Sex gets better in their marriages too.
Laurie Poole:It's fun, all right. Well, you know, I think that's a beautiful note on which to end the podcast. But what I'm understanding is my takeaway from our conversation today is something you said. You've both said it is that communication is key to everything, whether you're in a polyamorous relationship, a monogamous relationship, however you want to define that that, when you can fully express yourself by daring to take a risk, talking about uncomfortable things like how attractive do you find that person? Right, that, I mean, that's a that's kind of a benign question, but it's loaded, so it's not benign. It brings up all kinds of things, but it of a benign question, but it's loaded, so it's not benign. It brings up all kinds of things, but it it's a gateway to being able to talk about other things. Yeah, absolutely, you know, and the more you communicate, the stronger the relationship, the more secure you feel with each other and the less there is to hold back. So that sounds like a pretty good place to be it's, it's pretty awesome thank you for that oh, my pleasure.
Laurie Poole:Thank you both so much for sharing your experience and your relationship with listeners to uh therapist unplugged. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Thank you.
