Therapist Unplugged
Therapist Unplugged
Affairs: Starting therapy in a crisis with Cory Montfort
For those of you who have been cheated on, you know what we're talking about. The constant, gnawing, gut-wrenching awareness that you’re not special anymore, that you’ve been abandoned for someone prettier, smarter, sexier than you. It sends the betrayed into a spiral of self-doubt, wondering about their worth, unable to completely trust well until healed. And it sends the betrayer into a similar whirlwind in their struggle to come to grips with how they’ve hurt another (usually accidentally).
Recovering from an affair is a messy business. We try to help each relationship no matter the circumstances. For the betrayed, rebuilding the ability to trust. For those who cheated, rebuilding their trustworthiness. These things take an exorbitant amount of courage, patience, and time well-spent to accomplish.
Therapist Unplugged is brought to you by The Montfort Group. Each episode will feature the unplugged views of guests and fellow therapists as we navigate hot topics, therapy trends and the world around us.
*The Montfort Group provides a serene, calming setting where you can feel challenged, supported, and motivated. Our skilled therapists bridge specialized backgrounds and varied philosophies together to create one unified strategy. Rather than steer you away from your own natural abilities, we help you maximize your unique strengths. We do not view a broken history as the end of a story, we see it as an opportunity for a new beginning.
Cory this week's episode of therapist unplugged, we're going to talk about adultery and infidelity. What are your thoughts about that? Are you seeing more clients coming in with that as an issue when you're working with couples?
Cory Montfort:Well, I have to say that I think I've been seeing a little less of that problem with couples. I have seen a lot of couples in the last year and a half during this pandemic, but I almost feel like the infidelity has been a little less frequent of a problem, maybe because people just you know, aren't going to work and getting out, you know, and the social distancing and all that stuff. But yeah, I still definitely see it as a problem.
Laurie Poole:You know, what's interesting is that the definition or what people consider to be infidelity has changed so much over the years, don't you think? women in the workforce, electronics, cell phones, email when when I asked couples, how did you learn about the affair? It's nine times out of 10 because of text messages and emails.
Cory Montfort:Oh, and that's like the worst way to find out, right? Because it just kind of you can't unsee it.
Laurie Poole:Exactly, exactly. I think the other thing, so there's that piece of it. The other thing is I think as there are more and more studies being done about infidelity is that there are different kinds of infidelity now. We used to think of it as predominantly men who would have affairs or step outside their marriages and relationships with coworkers. That isn't true anymore.
Cory Montfort:Yeah. And then what is cheating, so so some people, you know, they they will see back and forth text messaging or pictures or something, and, you know, it might not have gone all the way to, you know, physical intimacy, but they still feel cheated on which I get right. But yeah, you know, how do you define cheating?
Laurie Poole:That's a big question. I think that because of electronics to, there seems to be I'm seeing more of what people are calling emotional affairs. So there hasn't been sexual intimacy. But there is a connection with another party, through text messaging, through emails, through frequent phone calls. And it may even be with someone in another state. And then the partner finds out about this emotional connection. And they read the language, or they hear the exchange on a voicemail. And they think, Oh, my God, this, you know, my partner is involved with somebody else. Yeah, it feels very threatening, very threatening, very, the rate, that sense of betrayal
Cory Montfort:is really, really, yeah. So So how do you address that? Initially, when couples come in, and one person, you know, says, I mean, obviously, it's kind of a crisis situation, right? they've, they've made the appointment, one, one person is just, you know, desperately trying to feel better. The other person as well, too, I think people forget about that, too. You know, just the the shame and guilt and fear, you know, the perpetrators side, too. So what's, what's the, what's the first thing that you ask and do?
Laurie Poole:The first thing I do is try to create an environment or a level of safety, so that the hurt party can express what they're feeling slow things down. Because when they come in their hair's on fire, they're in a crisis mode. It is this immediate, the hurt partner probably isn't eating well, isn't sleeping is full of anxiety, and hyper vigilant. And they are so angry. I mean, the pain gets translated into this anger. And, and so, you know, we'll spend time really working through that. And what's hard for the party who has stepped out of the relationship is to tolerate Yeah, expression of pain, anger, betrayal, because they already feel crappy, about what happened and where there's a level of shame and they just want to move through it. So everything can be okay. But the irony of a situation like that, Cory, is that the person who can offer the most comfort and soothing is the person who stepped outside of the relationship.
Cory Montfort:Oh, right. Right. Like who do you go to when you feel betrayed like that exam? Usually you go to your partner. That's
Laurie Poole:right. That's right. And the other thing, there's, there's another dynamic which is the party Who is hurt? often feels even more isolated? Because who were they going to tell about what's happened? Yeah, without then opening themselves to judgment by family members, by friends, because the knee jerk reaction is cut it off, break the relationship, get out of the marriage, all that. And it's not that simple.
Cory Montfort:No, and I and again, it's such a careful process is the therapist too, because, like you said, you want to give the person who, you know, feels betrayed and the most anxious and afraid and hurt some time to air those grievances. But as therapist, we know that it's probably more complicated than, than what meets the eye, we know that there has been possibly a disconnect in the relationship for quite some time or that, you know, the communication wasn't where it needed to be. So that it didn't get to a place where there was the secret third party in the relationship. But and we also know, we don't want to set up a dynamic where the I'll call this person, the perpetrator, right? The one who stepped outside of the relationship feels so guilty, or, you know, so beholden to the other person's, you know, wanting to surveil them, or control everything they do so they can feel safe, or that they believe that they're sorry, that it the dynamic starts to shift in an even more unhealthy way. That's right. Oh, it's so it's, it's such a delicate process.
Laurie Poole:It's very difficult. And I think, over time, when and I will often say this to the party who stepped outside, if you can just hang in here with me, you are in such a powerful position to offer comfort and soothing to your partner. But you also had a very different experience. And that's just as important. And I really want to understand what this has been like for you. And when a partner who has betrayed their spouse or their significant other can make space for the pain of their partner, and also be open to their own experience of shame, and betrayal. The other part of it is if it's an emotional affair, there's often grief that Yeah, the person who has stepped outside of the relationship, there is a grief and loss, that sometimes they need time to process that because that third party maybe was like an anesthetic or a salv over some of the things that were happening in the relationship or in the marriage. So it's complicated. There are many realities, many perspectives and truths. And, you know, it takes time to work through all those different sections of recovery, I think.
Cory Montfort:Yeah. Esther Perel, you know, she, she's the famous author therapist, that writes about affairs in her latest book, state of affairs. She, she talks about the, the person who steps outside of the relationship wasn't necessarily looking for someone else, but finding a part of themselves that they had not experienced, maybe ever or certainly in a long time, so to be able to eventually talk with their spouse about what they found out about themselves through that third party. And how can they safely bring that part back to the relationship in a safe way?
Laurie Poole:Yeah, and that's a hard one because the party who's hurt doesn't necessarily want to dip in that water. Like they're curious about it because part of the part of the injury in an affair and infidelity is at the party who's hurt, then also starts to have a narrative or beliefs about themselves. I wasn't enough Yeah, I couldn't hold their interest. I don't I'm I'm not as attractive and, and so on, when in fact, often with infidelity and affairs, the really the part that catches people or hooks people in is how they feel about themselves to your point about Esther's book.
Cory Montfort:Yeah, and I know we've kind of been talking about, or at least I've caught myself talking about it in relation to the man having the affair and this and we're talking, you know, About a heterosexual couple. But we know that this happens in a variety of relationships, the types of relationships. And, you know, there's also I think the stats are even that it's equal, that women also are having affairs, you know, that, that it's historically been told, you know that men were having most of their but but women also are struggling with, with monogamy long term monogamy. So yeah, what do you think is the difference how a wife or a husband takes like be knowledge of the affair? Do you think there's a difference between what men think about versus what women think about? That's
Laurie Poole:a really, really good question, Cory. And I haven't thought about it too much to be honest with you. Because when I have a couple sitting in front of me, I'm not thinking about male versus female necessarily, I'm thinking about what are the dynamics of that couple? How are they listening to one another? Can they hold space for a partner to express is the anxiety level like I've seen both men and women be as hyper vigilant and critical, and pursuing? based more on personality and attachment style? If that makes sense as to whether they're
Cory Montfort:the gender differences? Yeah, I still think there's some, and I'm certainly I know that there's outliers and stuff. But I do you think there's some differences sometimes about what men value on the whole, you know, that they they value, their status, they value their performance, you know, and so some of their fears when finding out that a woman has gone outside of the relationship might be some of those things rather, you know, again, speaking in generalized terms, a woman might fear is, you know, Am I pretty enough? Am I young enough? What, how am I inadequate? How am I not fulfilling his needs? And even what men and women want in relationships can be a little bit different, you know, where, you know, how much autonomy is necessary? How much togetherness is necessary? And again, yeah, to your point, I think personality has a lot to do with that, and attachment style. But I do think, you know, men and women on on the whole are, are wired a little bit differently.
Laurie Poole:I think, Well, I think they can I think possibly, I think they are wired differently. But here's the other thing. It's what men express or don't express. In other words, if I'm processing with a husband, for example, whose wife has had an affair, it's very hard. I think for a lot of men to talk about the vulnerability. Yes. And feeling less of, or not enough.
Cory Montfort:Yeah, they go to anger, right? Yeah. It's, it's harder for them to maybe, again, I know we're generalizing. But it's harder for them maybe to break down and cry and say, I'm so afraid. Yeah. Right. Whereas I might see that more from a female, and then men will just be I'm so angry. How do I you know, how do I fix this? Yeah.
Laurie Poole:I think the anxiety I think, though, I think often men's reaction to the pain, the anxiety, the not knowing where they stand, the fear, is their their reaction to those emotions is anger. But their brain gets hijacked, right? It's like the amygdala kicks in, we know that when a primary relationship is threatened, meaning we could potentially lose that partner. It's like our brain short circuits, and you go into this fear mode. And so the hyper vigilance kicks in. And I think, honestly, in the couples that I've worked with, I can see both of those trends happening in the relationship, but with men, it may be expressed differently.
Cory Montfort:Yeah, yeah. You know, you know, because anger is more acceptable than then vulnerabilities, right?
Laurie Poole:That's right. And actually in their vulnerability, it's so interesting, because when, when I'm working with a couple and you know, I'm really like, trying to coax some of that, man, this must be so hard. When you think about what did I have? Why couldn't I make her happy like she is with him. That In that vulnerability when they talk about their fear of losing their partner, like, often their wives will be just oh my God, I've waited so long to hear something like, you know. And so I think in that regard, sometimes the healing through not sometimes often. Yeah, I think that the healing through infidelity helps couples to create a second marriage with the same
Cory Montfort:person. Yeah, I say that a lot. I say, you know, your first marriage is over. Yes. And and this is a part of the quilt that you are making together. Yeah. And I think a lot of growth I mean, even in nature happens in the valley. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So this is the lowest point, but this is where the growth happens. Yeah. And so they're, you know, just to encourage them to, to look at, sometimes pain can create this awareness that needed to be addressed, these problems needed to be addressed. And so when, again, when you when you can give the, the hurt person a little bit of time to process their anger and kind of hold the one who stepped outside the marriage to say, okay, just be a little patient. Yeah, you know, yeah, give us a give us give us a minute, to allow your partner to, to grieve. I think, then that's when you can start to step forward and begin to understand, you know, what is possible, and I ended? That's a, that's a great next question, too, is just what our expectations for marriage, you know, what is it supposed to do for you long term? And I think our expectations over time have risen, right? Oh, my gosh, right. where, you know, back, back, you know, the beginning of, of, maybe 100 years ago, or whatever it was about practicality and economics, correct? Yeah, it made sense. And they were kind of rigid gender roles. And so you have people that stayed married for a really long time. Yet, if you rated their satisfaction or happiness, they would say me, you
Laurie Poole:know, can I can I just raise a point that really bugs me? Yeah. This idea that when we get married to someone, or that when we choose to marry, we find a partner, that they are our everything. Yeah. And our soulmate, and all these romantic motions, it's so much crap, a lot of pressure a lot to put on a partner. Yep, that they have to be everything down to meet all your needs. As a solid marriage, a healthy marriage should be like a Venn diagram, right? You have the parts that overlap, where you win together, but you also have individual autonomy, you need different kinds of people in your life.
Cory Montfort:Yeah, for sure, I've heard. So I kind of subscribe to a hybrid of that. So I've heard, you know, mazars hierarchy of needs. So you have like food, water shelter at the bottom of the pyramid. And then, you know, creating meaning as the very top of the pyramid. And so what we this definition of marriage has changed over time towards extremely practical at the beginning, where, you know, it was just for financial or, you know, political security. And that was just the baseline of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. But it wasn't very satisfactory, right. So we've moved to this place where I think it can be extremely powerful and amazing, at the top of the pyramid, which is to create meaning and to be fulfilled. But so I like that the expectations have risen over time. But now to the point where there is no room for other people or other kinds of relationships, or even to process your own your own anxiety or sadness that would exist within or without that relationship. Yeah, you know, but it's easy to point to someone, when you're in a relationship and say, That's why I'm unhappy, or that's why I'm bored, or that's why I'm stuck. Yeah. And so really, again, going to how important just to having a therapist over the course of your life can be is, is this something that my partner, is the correct audience for? Is this something that my partner can help me with? Or is this an expectation that may be too high for a relationship to solve? You know,
Laurie Poole:I think the other I hear what you're saying, I think the other part of it too, though, is what are the qualities or the characteristics of couples who have safe secure adult attachment and the end, you know, we're wired for connection that is as important as the food, the shelter. All of that is we need to be connected to people, we are human beings. That's what that's what contributes to us being unique. And so I think that in a safe, secure adult attachment, if I'm looking at it through that lens is one where you feel that you trust that when you reach for your partner, they will respond, that you can go to them and vulnerability and know you're going to be emotionally safe, that they've got your back that you can stand shoulder to shoulder even if you disagree. Yeah. All right, that to me, from, you know, sort of my orientation and so on. That's what I work towards with clients, so that they are secure in the relationship without pointing to well, but you didn't do this. And you didn't do that. Yeah, because we need different kinds of people in
Cory Montfort:our lives. Yeah. So that, again, coming to that balance of autonomy, which is also extremely important to us as individuals, right. And also, that connection. And, and sometimes you're gonna need more connection than your partner. That's right. You know, and so to understand on the whole and give grace, I think it's really important. This topic is, obviously we could talk about this a
Laurie Poole:long time, we'll episode we will on this topic, and we'll certainly come back to it. Yeah,
Cory Montfort:yeah. No, but this is a great start. And, you know, maybe and I definitely think there's so many different kinds of relationships that we can talk about, as far as intimacy, and you know, it's not just sexual intimacy, you know, so I look forward to
Laurie Poole:it. Yeah, me too. emotional intimacy, open relationships.
Cory Montfort:Same sex relationship.
Laurie Poole:Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Cory Montfort:All of it. family of origin. Yeah.
Laurie Poole:Yeah. Parents children.
Cory Montfort:Yes. Really speaking. Speaking of Yes. Who are you going to visit? I'm
Laurie Poole:going to I'm going I'm going home to Montreal for 10 days. I'm waiting for the arrival of a little granddaughter? Oh,
Cory Montfort:well, I'm sure we'll, we'll get to hear all about it. But yeah, thanks for beginning this conversation. And I look forward to hearing hearing more about it from other special guests that you have. And, you know, and if, if any of you listeners have a question or a comment about stuff we talked about, because sure we'll have different opinions and, and views, please just let us know.
Laurie Poole:Absolutely. We'd love to hear from our three listeners.
Cory Montfort:I heard. I heard we have more now.
Laurie Poole:Yeah. Okay. It's more than Okay. Okay. That's great. Okay, I feel encouraged. All right, we'll see you guys next time. Thanks. Great.
